More Problems at Church
I just have a few things to say: ". . . the greatest among you shall be the servant of all." I think that they missed this one in the various attempts made by people who are trying to threaten, manipulate, and flatter people who are in disagreement with the Elders. I feel very disturbed when I am labeled as rebellious because I disagree with their theological presuppositions. I don't particularly want to leave the body, but these people spread hatred and anger and trive on retorical attacks based on poor theology and non-existant exegetical insights.
Since when did Christ allow ANYONE in his body to practice worldly domination? Well, it does happen, but I do not understand how people can believe that Christian leadership should practice a type of coersion that is considered shameful even in the outside world (America). Instead of being shepherds who lead, they are trying to force the sheep to go where they want them by kicking them. Now, I've kicked my share of sheep but 1. I am not a shepherd and 2. those were real sheep, not metaphorical sheep who stand for the body of Christ. I just don't get it: how can anyone think that it is okay to weild power in a kingdom where the king ran away from the authoritarian crown?
But, just for a minute, let's just say that the word authority, as it is applied to eldership, means absolute rule over the church. If authority means right to dominate and dictate all actions or behaviors in the church, then the church should follow every "law" passed by the eldership, support every theological leaning and not question any decision. History, though, teaches us that elders are not always good people. In fact, there have been many evil people who supported many evil actions who have been leaders of the church. Some leaders supported the murder of other Christians whom they believed to be heritics, others supported the inquisition and still others the Holocaust. Don't get me wrong, this is no Holocaust, but a view of eldership that removes accountability from the equation is what led to these tragic, selfish, stupid decisions.
If I believed in that type of authority among members of the body of Christ, authority which is worldly, not Godly, I would have to be a Catholic (or an Orthadox believer), since belief in that type of authority condemns every disagreement which contributed to the Protestant movement. Moreover, had I lived in some of the times and places in which my ancestors lived, I would have had to stand with the Pope, since he was elected by the leadership of the church, and support the inquisition, and, in fact, I would not be able to even disagree (since this eldership allows and supports calling disagreement rebellion) with the torture and the murder of innocents.
Hmmmm . . . NOPE! I cannot, in good conscience, sit by and be a good little drone when such a dangerous belief is being pushed by people who are seeking power. Let me revise that a little, I refuse to accept ungodly use of power in God's kingdom by people . . . hold on, we all know that there is most likely only one power-hungery person behind this whole thing, the others are being manipulated by him using their pride and their (good) desire to improve the church . . . a person, who is acting in a very questionable manner.
Frankly, the villainization of those who feel that it is okay to disagree with the eldership is the only practical reason that I am not pushing people to stay. If persecution takes place in the world, the light of Jesus shines to the world; if persecution takes place in the church, the light of is darkened in the eyes of the non-christian and uncommitted God-Fearer. Maybe that is why, (according to Schulz, Death of the Church, I think) churches that split are more likely to become healthy, both in number and in quality of spiritual life, than churches that have bitter rivalries that are unresolved. As Stan Granberg once said, "We need to change out terminology: instead of calling it division, we need to start calling it multiplication." I wish for a church in which problems are resolved reasonably, but I accept that God uses even this worst failing for good . . . even when it is born of evil.
Since when did Christ allow ANYONE in his body to practice worldly domination? Well, it does happen, but I do not understand how people can believe that Christian leadership should practice a type of coersion that is considered shameful even in the outside world (America). Instead of being shepherds who lead, they are trying to force the sheep to go where they want them by kicking them. Now, I've kicked my share of sheep but 1. I am not a shepherd and 2. those were real sheep, not metaphorical sheep who stand for the body of Christ. I just don't get it: how can anyone think that it is okay to weild power in a kingdom where the king ran away from the authoritarian crown?
But, just for a minute, let's just say that the word authority, as it is applied to eldership, means absolute rule over the church. If authority means right to dominate and dictate all actions or behaviors in the church, then the church should follow every "law" passed by the eldership, support every theological leaning and not question any decision. History, though, teaches us that elders are not always good people. In fact, there have been many evil people who supported many evil actions who have been leaders of the church. Some leaders supported the murder of other Christians whom they believed to be heritics, others supported the inquisition and still others the Holocaust. Don't get me wrong, this is no Holocaust, but a view of eldership that removes accountability from the equation is what led to these tragic, selfish, stupid decisions.
If I believed in that type of authority among members of the body of Christ, authority which is worldly, not Godly, I would have to be a Catholic (or an Orthadox believer), since belief in that type of authority condemns every disagreement which contributed to the Protestant movement. Moreover, had I lived in some of the times and places in which my ancestors lived, I would have had to stand with the Pope, since he was elected by the leadership of the church, and support the inquisition, and, in fact, I would not be able to even disagree (since this eldership allows and supports calling disagreement rebellion) with the torture and the murder of innocents.
Hmmmm . . . NOPE! I cannot, in good conscience, sit by and be a good little drone when such a dangerous belief is being pushed by people who are seeking power. Let me revise that a little, I refuse to accept ungodly use of power in God's kingdom by people . . . hold on, we all know that there is most likely only one power-hungery person behind this whole thing, the others are being manipulated by him using their pride and their (good) desire to improve the church . . . a person, who is acting in a very questionable manner.
Frankly, the villainization of those who feel that it is okay to disagree with the eldership is the only practical reason that I am not pushing people to stay. If persecution takes place in the world, the light of Jesus shines to the world; if persecution takes place in the church, the light of is darkened in the eyes of the non-christian and uncommitted God-Fearer. Maybe that is why, (according to Schulz, Death of the Church, I think) churches that split are more likely to become healthy, both in number and in quality of spiritual life, than churches that have bitter rivalries that are unresolved. As Stan Granberg once said, "We need to change out terminology: instead of calling it division, we need to start calling it multiplication." I wish for a church in which problems are resolved reasonably, but I accept that God uses even this worst failing for good . . . even when it is born of evil.
posted by Unknown at
1:14 AM
12 Comments:
I agree!
P. S. let's exchange links, please. I'll add your nice blog to my blogroll (www.magnusbeckerblog.de)...
Yeah, I suspect that the above is just spam . . . anyway, yesterday some of us who disagree with the domination that is present in the eldership, decided to take a break. It seems that many are being "confronted" at church about their "rebellion." Yeah, that's a good witness to visitors.
So, we've decided to remove ourselves from the situation for six monthes, meeting in homes, until we can raise the money to get a conflict resolution professional in to help us and until some of the bile is vented from the situation.
i'm so sorry. so dreadfully sorry.
good for you ty, for standing up for God's side.
Yeah, what he said.
I find it alarming that the elders and their supporters think it's acceptable to use this "disagreement equals rebellion" propoganda against their brothers and sisters. Peter and Paul disagreed with each other, but neither tried to bully the other into submission or throw them out of the church if they didn't conform. Love and respect shouldn't be conditional upon agreement.
I find it disheartening that they have chosen power and authority over unity and humility. It would be different if the voice of God had announced from Heaven that these four men were His chosen leaders. But these men were elected by the congregation, some by a narrow margin. Now, at least half of the congregation has asked them to step down to facilitate a mediation and reconciliation process, but they have brushed off the request like so much rebellious nonsense.
To ask me to remain in the congregation and tacitly support these actions and decisions would be to ask me to violate my conscience. I would like to think that no one would think it is okay to ask someone to violate their conscience (since the Holy Spirit so often acts through ones conscience), but I can no longer expect resonable responses in this situation.
Yesterday was the first time in five months (aside from soul-refreshing trips home) that gathering and worshiping was not been a burden that provoked sadness, frustration, and bitter disappointment. It was the first time I felt real love among my brothers and sisters, the first time I felt that people were actually happy to have me among them. If that's not an indictment of the situation we've removed ourselves from, I don't know what is.
It's a good thing that I have a strong, Christ-centered faith. If I didn't have the foundation I do, I would have given up on the whole thing a long time ago.
Ty: This is a problem that has infected the valley for 25 plus years. A disfunctional church is not much different from a disfunctional family. There comes a time when kicking the dust off your shoes and leaving the "egos" to "battle it out" is the only logical choice. We are to be "servants", few understand the meaning of this term. We are also to be the "salt", the problem is when the "salt" doesn't get mixed throughout, the cookie it all ends up in, is not fit to eat. The difference between a fool and a wiseman is the fool makes up his mind before he does his research and finds out both sides. (I always question the first to tell a story. They always sound so concerned. The innocent are usually willing to wait for Jahovah's judgement. Make sure of your facts and position! I would never want to have to answer for spliting the Church. (I chose to walk away). Remember: it is the Lord's job to cut down and cast into the "Fire" any "trees" that have not been pruned and mantained properly. True "Elders" are to be appointed because the are the kind of men described in "The Book" NOT ELECTED BY POPULARITY!!!! I Walked Away when An Elected Elder told me Quote "I know that is what the Bible says, but it's not the way we're going to do it" on Quote. We must use our head and our heart when make our choices. Follow "Spock's example to find the truth. Learn to set your ego aside and "The Force" will let you hear your heart. Unless you know first hand (no matter how much you love or trust the source) it is still "Gossip". Do Your Research! I find peace in knowing: "there is KARMA" (what goes around comes around) or (Vengeance is Mine, I shall repay). However you want to say it. In life make sure you are not the "Pot" yelling at the "Kettle" and you should be safe. God's Blessings on you. "UDC"
I've left a comment on the blog where you posted the elders' letter.
Both you and Gina make a lot of sense. Praise God you are so well grounded in your love for Jesus! God is good, and you have a very wise father!
My heart goes out to all of you who seek to keep the congregation whole. I think it's a very mature decision to want to invite someone like Charlie to come and help sort out the problem. He is very well-studied, and he is wise. He is a worthy servant, as we all should be. I will continue to pray fervently for the Boise congregation.
Mediators are not always successful. Charlie went to Los Alamos, but only one group would even meet with him.
If it does not work out, I do pray for this to be multiplication rather than division. If my memory is correct, the two congregations closest to you on the west began over disputes.
I will pray for unity, and if not unity, for a church plant that will grow and avoid the the pitfalls I mentioned in my other comment. It weighs so heavy on my heart.
Ty,
I wish you well in sorting through all of this. ITs good to hear from you!
~Josh
I had to resolve in the past situations where I felt ungodly men retained the title elder. Then I was reading where God said that he had taken the kingdom away from David. Interesting point; that was half way through David’s earthly reign as king. He still held the title for many years after that even though God had taken his Kingdom away.
Always stay scriptural in your approach to them and they will out themselves if they choose to approach you in an unscriptural way.
ooops. look what I get for commenting at wee hrs of the morning ("wee hrs" eg: time you should only be awake to wee and head back to bed.)
1 Samuel 16:1 it states God Rejected Saul as king. Yet you can see he still held the eartly title for many years. However David was annointed shortly by God.
This sounds all way too crazy! Of all the human beings that have ever been a part of my youth ministry, the last two that I would have ever labeled as "rebels" would be Ty and Gena Frost!
I am confident that if you guys -- including all the rebels -- continue to fight off bitterness, gossip & arogance, and as long as you do not allow this to cause you to become selfserving and maintain your focus on serving others, then God, in the end is going to claim the victory in all this.
Hold fast!
Ty and Gina,
I have felt the same way as you about my former congegration and like kevin I must point you to the greater battle now: bitterness and resentment. I know it is hard to not have hard feelings towards an elder or elders that do not seem to understand the gospels in the same way as us but if you were to fall into the trap of hating them... then you fall into the same trap as they did. God Bless you both.
I'll address the current church situation in a post, but Ill give the short story here: the elders (or one elder for all of them) apologized and gave their blessing to a new congregation, which is an acceptable solution.
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