Subordination in a Nicean Framework
[Lingamish, if you are still out there, I've decided to answer one of your questions in an attempt to keep your interest (or get it back) while I continue to try to find the time to write what will probably be a series of posts on the LXX, translation, and theology of inspiration and canon. I was originally delayed by weeks spent away from my computer except for short periods that were inadiquate for such a project; since then, I have re-read Invitation to the Septuagint and added some new goals in the realm of systematic theology to my investigation. Needless to say, as with most useful projects, it has taken more time than I anticipated. So, I shall try to keep you entertained until I find time to really write.]
Lingamish brought up the question of subordination of Son to Father in the trinity on July 30, 2006 in the following entry:
According to Nicean docterines, this passage was not about God's superiority to Christ by nature or essence but, as so many have said in the debate about "gender roles," this is about fulfilling the proper role. (The following is my interpretation, the first was right out of Epiphanius) Though I am not an orthodox Nicean, I believe that, in that context (and some others), it indicates an absolute oneness of purpose, and complete agreement and harmony to the extent that the second person of the trinity can trust his work in the hands of the first. Thus the work of the trinity finds completion in the willing surrender, by one under no compulsion to do so, to another, expressing faith even between Jesus and God. In that context, all of creation is hemmed in by all encompassing faith, which seems to me to be a healthy theological move. You might trace out some of the implications for yourself.
Lingamish brought up the question of subordination of Son to Father in the trinity on July 30, 2006 in the following entry:
Eternal Subordination
Suzanne has just completed a very well written series of posts on the gender role debate at Better Bibles Blog. There are four posts: I, II, III, IV. I was reminded of a post by Ben Witherington in March, "The Eternal Subordination of Christ and Women". His post (actually a reprint of an article by Dr. Kevin Giles) puts a new perspective on this debate, showing that underlying the desire to subordinate women to men is a theology that subordinates the Son to the Father. The passage upon which this theology stands is 1 Corinthians 15:24-28:Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
1 Corinthians 15:24-28 (NIV)
If we assume the full equality of the members of the trinity as Giles and Witherington do, what is the intent of Paul's words in this passage?
According to Nicean docterines, this passage was not about God's superiority to Christ by nature or essence but, as so many have said in the debate about "gender roles," this is about fulfilling the proper role. (The following is my interpretation, the first was right out of Epiphanius) Though I am not an orthodox Nicean, I believe that, in that context (and some others), it indicates an absolute oneness of purpose, and complete agreement and harmony to the extent that the second person of the trinity can trust his work in the hands of the first. Thus the work of the trinity finds completion in the willing surrender, by one under no compulsion to do so, to another, expressing faith even between Jesus and God. In that context, all of creation is hemmed in by all encompassing faith, which seems to me to be a healthy theological move. You might trace out some of the implications for yourself.
posted by Unknown at
5:52 PM
9 Comments:
I have a rather unrefined translation from the Apophthegmata Patrum (Saings of the [Desert] Fathers [and Mothers]) on The Blog I Never Use.
It's been about 8yrs, it's apparent that the excuse you made when you ran away was just more of your BS. You claim to live a virtuous life but dismiss the facts when they don't fit in with your fantasy. When you live with your head in the sand, you are not an effective servant. I've been on the other end of your judgmental statements, this will be made right when we stand before Jehovah! The Book in any language teaches that we are to seek out the truth. Not accept hear say (gossip) without researching it. I know you have not made the effort. You had the potential to be what God intended, open your mind! The closed minded killed Christ. I wouldn't want to live in your world where Free Speach is not allowed. It's apparent that education hasn't created wisdom, that will only happen when you open your mind and quit judging. (judging without all the evidence is Wrong.) You've shown your colors and in my "opinion" you are just another close minded, opinionated liberal. For years I've prayed you would be better than that.
HEY ANON- QUIT BEING A COCK MASTER AND GROW UP! GET A CLUE DICK!
Oh Anonymous. I am sad for you. You really are an awful person and apparently the extent of your cruelty is deep within your heart. Though I don't know you, through you comments I am making a judgement call. You in no way show Christ. Infact what saddens me the most is the fact that you even mention the beautiful name of our Lord when you are spewing forth your hatred. It breaks my heart when people like you give a gross impression of Jesus. Shame on you. YOu should maybe open your mind up and let thoughs of kindness and love in. Also, if you didn't notice last time you commented...I have this to say to you...
Stop being a coward and comment with your name. Grow a pair Anonymous.
Is it Ty's soul that you're worried about Anonymous? Is it his soul that you're fighting so hard to save? I really don't get it. You refuse conversation and choose to just make random angry statements against others. How is that Christlike? I don't get it.
Am I understanding your comment here right when I say that you believe that God intended for Ty to be an unopinionated conservative? Is that right? 'Cause thats what I am reading. An unopinionated conservative? Seriously? Is that why Jesus died? To make us conservative? Jesus was pretty opinoinated and pretty radical if I understand him. If I understand Jesus right it was the close minded, self righteous, ultra conservative religious people that he called out as hypocrites.
I don't want to point any fingers anonymous 'cause I don't even know you. I would just ask that you read the gospels and try to understand what Jesus was really about. I'll give you a hint: It has to do with love (if you don't know what that is ask Ty).
Blogmunity, pardon me for going straight from lurking to posting a really long comment, but I couldn't sit in silence any longer. I'm sure you know the feeling.
Anonymous:
Anyone who would say such things about Ty either:
a) has never met him,
-or-
b) has astoundingly feeble powers of observation.
Ty has earned the respect of every clear-minded person who has taken the time to get to know him--I've wracked my brain and cannot find a single exception. Are you sure you’ve got the right blog?! By your slanderous comments, you have to be talking about some other Ty. If your perceptions are really that skewed, your world must be a miserable and confounding place to live. OR you’re too deluded to understand just how stupid you are revealing yourself to be. Let me guess: you try to micromanage and control everyone else’s life, even virtual if they're virtual strangers, because you think you’re smarter than everyone else.
How’s that working for you, huh? Have you always been a cowardly bully who criticizes and slanders everyone you conceive as a threat (i.e. smarter, more successful, or more virtuous then you) just so you can feel better about yourself? You seem to have a lot of practice. If you act the way you do here in real life, you’ve gotta be a big joke among the people you try to impress. You certainly have NOT impressed us. Our circle of bloggers have known Ty for a long time, and we know the kind of person he is. You just look foolish when you try to make him look bad.
Speaking of acting like a fool: On Ty's main blog, you indicated you’re from Idaho, and you took personal offense to Ty’s comment about not liking to drive there in the winter. A few other Idahoans might have been a teeny bit miffed by that comment, too. But your reaction was insane. It was like dropping a nuclear bomb on a slug to kill it, when a few shakes of salt could do the job just as well. Your reactions are just as rediculous as your accusations. Get real. Then get lost.
While Ty is humble and would never claim to be wise, people who know him know that he is wise far beyond his years. He is also highly intelligent, incredibly patient, kind, generous, thoughtful, respectful, loving, and forgiving. That is the reason he hasn't given you the dressing-down you so richly deserve. Unfortunately for you, I’m not that nice, at least not when someone I care about is being unjustly attacked.
Your ridiculous opinions regarding Ty are your own ignorant ramblings and have no foothold in reality. I suppose you are entitled to your opinions, but you’re standing alone there, buddy. No one we know shares your views. The only thing you have accomplished with your vitriolic mud-slinging is to rally people to Ty’s side. Not to mention revealing yourself to be a bitter, foolish, jealous, small-minded, and childish person.
So why don’t you just go away and pester somebody else you don’t know. Better yet, check yourself into a psychiatric unit where you can get the help you really need.
P.S. Perhaps you need to look up the definition of liberal. One can either be closed-minded, or they can be liberal. It is counter-intuitive to accuse someone of both in the same breath, genius.
thank you for bringing up the "closed minded liberal" thing...
anonymous - how is it christlike to pick on ty in such a public manner? if you truly love him... take him aside privately and discuss your concerns. if you feel no resolution, invite another disciple into the conversation. that's god's plan for conflict resolution. what you've done is invite anyone with an internet connection into what should be a private conversation.
i have a feeling a third party would not be necessary. if your mind is as open as you imply that it is, ty's true nature would be revealed almost instantly. i challenge anyone to know him and accuse him of anything less than noble and christlike intentions in all that he does.
Lord, I pray for three things: That you protect and bring peace to Ty's heart. He is your man and carries himself with gentleness and integrity.
I also ask that You (alone) convict Anon of his sins of pride, unkindness, arogance and disobedience to Matthew 18:15-17. Heal his bitter heart.
Finally, Father, send someone that he trusts alongside this damaged man. Anon has demonstrated a devotion to you, but pride seems to prevent him from hearing the many voices of this blogmunity. Send some Kingdom citizen who has his confidence to speak clear words of submission and honesty. May your Spirit do His work of conviction. Do whatever You need to do in order to get the attention of this wayward brother.
We have no power over this hurt and spiteful man, but trust You to do your work of redemption.
In Jesus' name,
Amen
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